Boris Johnson exclusive interview: We will not need another national lockdown 

As the PM marks one year in office, he likens shutdown to the nuclear deterrent, saying: ‘I certainly don’t want to use it’

Boris Johnson
Boris Johnson and his partner Carrie Symonds with their son Wilfred in the study of No10 Downing Street Credit: Andrew Parsons / No 10 Downing Street

Boris Johnson has effectively ruled out another nationwide lockdown, stating the option is now akin to a "nuclear deterrent".

In an exclusive interview with The Sunday Telegraph, Mr Johnson says he "certainly" does not want another blanket shutdown, "and nor do I think we will be in that position again".

The intervention, which appears to put the Prime Minister at odds with his chief scientific adviser, comes after councils were given sweeping new powers to impose 'lightning' local lockdowns in the event of further Covid-19 outbreaks.

Speaking to this newspaper to mark his first year in office, Mr Johnson also declared that the Government's "transformative" agenda "will not be knocked off course" by the coronavirus pandemic.

In a series of major announcements, the Prime Minister states:

  • That ministers are "looking at" the "odd and perverse" situation of someone being entitled to legal aid despite having their citizenship revoked. No 10 is also understood to be considering depriving convicted terrorists of legal aid if they leave the country to fight alongside a terror group and then attempt to return

  • Reveals that No 10 is reviewing the "pricing mechanisms" of university courses, in a move that could see reductions in the cost of science and engineering degrees, with higher fees for some arts subjects

  • Says he wants the UK to "excel" in producing its own 5G and state-of-the-art broadband technology as Huawei, the Chinese firm, is phased out of the country's new mobile network

  • All but rules out new sugar taxes

  • Reveals that the Government is examining whether the judicial review process goes "too far" after judges allowed Shamima Begum, the jihadi bride, to return to the UK to fight a legal case. A formal review of the mechanism is due to be launched as soon as this week  

  • Suggests that he wants more "confidence and belief" from the civil service, saying: "I think the possibility of change really is there."

Scroll down to read the full interview

Prime Minister Boris Johnson in his 10 Downing Street office
Prime Minister Boris Johnson in his 10 Downing Street office Credit: Geoff Pugh for The Sunday Telegraph

Mr Johnson's decision to effectively rule out a second national lockdown comes after the Office for Budget Responsibility, the UK's fiscal watchdog, warned last week that unemployment could surge to 12 per cent at the end of this year, leaving four million people without jobs, as a result of the Covid-19 pandemic and the national lockdown that began in March.

Asked whether he was taking a similar approach to France, who have ruled out another nationwide shutdown, Mr Johnson said: "Yes. I mean, look, I can't abandon that tool any more than I would abandon a nuclear deterrent. But it is like a nuclear deterrent, I certainly don't want to use it.  And nor do I think we will be in that position again.

"It's not just that we're getting much better at spotting the disease and isolating it locally, but we understand far more which groups it affects, how it works, how it's transmitted, so the possibility of different types of segmentation, of enhanced shielding for particular groups, is now there."

At a Downing Street press conference on Friday, Mr Johnson had said it was his "strong and sincere hope" to "allow a more significant return to normality from November, at the earliest, possibly in time for Christmas.”  

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Councils are being given the powers to close venues such as bars and restaurants in order to halt local outbreaks without crippling the nation's economy.

However, hours before the press conference, Sir Patrick Vallance, the chief scientific adviser, had floated the idea of another national lockdown, stating: “Come winter, the challenges will be very much greater and there is a risk that this could also need national measures as well.”

Interview - one year on: The Prime Minister insists coronavirus crisis will not deflect from his 'transformative' agenda

This Friday Boris Johnson will mark the first anniversary of the day he entered Downing Street shortly after fulfilling a lifetime's ambition to become prime minister.

When he first addressed the nation in his new role, with the odd swipe at his predecessor, and a bold pledge to "change this country for the better", little could Mr Johnson have imagined the horrors through which he would have to steer the UK just six months later.

But, sitting in his study in No 10, having recovered from his own near-death experience from Covid-19, Mr Johnson is insistent that coronavirus has not blown the Government off course from the major reforming agenda he set out last year.

The Prime Minister in his 10 Downing Street office
"We want to be a transformative Government, because there's a massive opportunity in this country to do things differently and to do things better." Credit: Geoff Pugh

"We want to be a transformative Government, because there's a massive opportunity in this country to do things differently and to do things better.

"We've seen that really exemplified in what happened with coronavirus."

Mr Johnson has faced sustained criticism for aspects of the Government and its agencies' handling of the Covid-19 pandemic, including the failures that led to Covid-19 spreading through many care homes, and major shortfalls in the provision of testing and personal protective equipment for healthcare staff.

The Prime Minister insists, however, that "lots of things ... went very, very well", including the construction of the Nightingale hospitals to provide additional intensive care capacity for Covid-patients, the UK's work discovering the benefits of dexamethasone as a treatment, the furlough scheme to support workers, and helping homeless people off the streets.

"We're genuinely able now to look at what's happening in much closer to real time, to isolate outbreaks and to address them on the spot, and to work with local authorities to contain the problem locally and regionally if we have to," he adds.

"We have a vision for the  country under which business of all kinds and all types of activity in this  country can eventually get back to as close to normal as possible."

'There's a massive opportunity in this country to do things differently'

In France, Jean Castex, the new prime minister, has ruled out a second national lockdown because of the disastrous economic and social consequences wrought by the first. Is Mr Johnson now taking a similar approach, in favour of local lockdowns?

"Yes. I mean, look, I can't abandon that tool any more than I would abandon a nuclear deterrent. But it is like a nuclear deterrent, I certainly don't want to use it.  And nor do I think we will be in that position again.

"It's not just that we're getting much better at spotting the disease and isolating it locally, but we understand far more which groups it affects, how it works, how it's transmitted, so the possibility of different types of segmentation, of enhanced shielding for particular groups, is now there."

Mr Johnson is "not betting" on a vaccine, he insists, pointing out that "we haven't got one for Sars and it has been 18 years." But he notes that scientists "seem perhaps less pessimistic about that than they were."

Couples will soon be able to hold wedding receptions again, with up to 30 guests. Are Mr Johnson and his fiancee, Carrie Symonds, likely to take advantage of the new rule?

"Well, aha! That's a jolly good question." It is one that he deftly avoids. One of the ways in which the 56-year-old's spell in St Thomas's intensive care unit (ICU) has influenced his outlook is in his approach to tackling obesity.

"I don't feel I can talk with authority about this until I've made more progress myself in reducing my own body mass," he jokes.

"But I have made some. I'm down a stone and five pounds on where I was before I went into ICU. But I've got a long way to go.

"The ICU did a lot of good..." Mr Johnson says, before trailing off. "I don't recommend that as a diet," he adds hastily. The Prime Minister lays the groundwork for the Government's forthcoming anti-obesity plan.

While he is "anxious" about being seen as "nannying", there is "no doubt at all that we are fatter than most other European countries." The Government has faced calls for a sugar tax on food.

But Mr Johnson appears to rule out such a move, stating: "On putting up prices of food for people who may not be on high incomes, I'm not instinctively in favour of that. There are other ways of doing it."

But he adds: "I think what people need to remember is that if you lose weight, you feel better, you really do feel better. It's a psychological thing. It's a mental boon, as well as greatly reducing your risk of all sorts of conditions, Covid being one of them."

Mr Johnson says he is feeling better than he did before being struck by Covid-19, because he is "lighter".

"I played tennis last night and I played better than I have for ages."

The obesity plan will fulfil a pledge in the Conservatives' manifesto - one of many on which Mr Johnson is seeking to make progress over the next year.

"This is a Government that absolutely will not be diverted, will not be knocked off course," he insists.

That programme will include Mr Johnson's key pledges to build new hospitals, and recruit additional police officers and nurses. Mr Johnson reveals that he is also preparing to push ahead with plans for a major review of the legal system, including potential abuses of the system of judicial review. Ministers are also examining the eligibility rules for legal aid.

Dilyn 'made a very useful contribution' when he gatecrashed Cabinet

Last week the Court of Appeal ruled that Shamima Begum, 20, should be allowed to return to the UK to fight the decision to remove her British citizenship, after she left London to join the Islamic State group in Syria in 2015.

Mr Johnson states: "It seems to me to be at least odd and perverse that somebody can be entitled to legal aid when they are not only outside the country, but have had their citizenship deprived for the protection of national security. That, amongst other things, we will be looking at."

Those other things will include the system of judicial review itself.

"What we are looking at is whether there are some ways in which judicial review does indeed go too far or does indeed have perverse consequences that were not perhaps envisaged when the tradition of judicial review began."

Another area of focus is post-school education, which will be the subject of a major review.

"We're looking very much at supporting Further Education in the same way that governments have supported Higher Education (HE)," Mr Johnson says, adding that he believes  "massively in supporting skills, in technical education."

Given this approach, is Mr Johnson drawn to the Australian government's plans to double university fees for some future arts students in order to fund cheaper degrees in subjects such as maths and engineering?

"We are looking very much at pricing mechanisms. Because, if you remember, what basically went wrong with the higher education degree courses was everybody charged the maximum whack, because no further education institution felt that they could accept the loss of prestige associated with offering a course that was cheaper.

"In reality, it would have been much more sensible if courses had been differently priced. We are certainly looking at all that."

Mr Johnson believes that one of the benefits of a more significant focus on technical education could be boosting the UK's production of cutting edge technology, in the wake of his decision to phase out Huawei, the Chinese firm, from Britain's 5G network.

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"Let's start doing some of this stuff ourselves, working with ... like minded countries, and getting the stuff installed. The potential is enormous, whether it's 5G or full fibre or gigabit or superfast broadband, the UK can really excel in all those."

In an apparent warning to Tory backbenchers now seeking further curbs on Chinese firms, Mr Johnson warns against "a sort of very, very Manichaean or black and white view of the issue, because it is complex." Also on the home front, No 10 has made clear its ambitions for reform of the civil service.

"Please don't think that I in any way underestimate the brilliance of the UK civil service, they are absolutely fantastic," the Prime Minister says.

"But maybe there are ways in which we can all learn together to do things faster, to have a real spirit of 'can do'. I'm not saying that people don't have that, but there's an opportunity to learn from the crisis and to work faster.

"I think sometimes it's a question of confidence and belief."

Mr Johnson avoids addressing whether he believes that Sir Mark Sedwill, the outgoing Cabinet Secretary, has the necessary "confidence and belief", or whether he asked him to leave.

He is a "huge admirer of Sir Mark", who "wanted a change." The Prime Minister lifts his gaze at the sound of barking. It appears that Dilyn, the Jack Russell-cross adopted by Mr Johnson and Miss Symonds, is hankering for a walk.

"He came into the Cabinet the other day because the door was open at the back," the Prime Minister discloses. "He made a very useful contribution."

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